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"Why of course the people don't want war… that is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.”
Hitler’s propaganda minister Hermann Goering, speaking during his Nuremberg war crimes trial, 1946.
Sitting on the toe of an enormous replica of a shoe, Yoko Ono looks incongruous surrounded by the giant-sized exhibits that make up her new show ‘Odyssey Of a Cockroach’ at London’s ICA East Warehouse, in Shoreditch. Above her, towers an equally gigantic poster displaying Hermann Goering’s infamous post war propaganda quote, though it’s at ground level that her new show is principally focused, specifically the microscopic worldview of the insect.
Themed around cruelty and man’s inhumanity to man during the 20th century, the exhibition tells the tale of a cockroach as it wanders round New York City, encountering such situations as a bloody crime scene, bombed out building and numerous giant artefacts scattered around all three floors of the gallery. Surrounding the sculptures are billboard sized photos of the scenes plus Hermann Goering’s infamous quote, which dominates the ground floor room.
“That’s a great quote, isn’t it, more people should be made aware of it,” Yoko murmurs.
“Many people are still believing in the propaganda that’s being put out and I’m saying ‘Hey, don’t believe in everything, try to see reality.”
The last time Yoko chatted to Skrufff (in March 2003) she’d been in London to perform her seminal 1980 club classic Walking On Thin Ice at Nag, Nag, Nag, though this trip she’s firmly focused on cockroaches rather than clubs. Still best known as the wife of murdered Beatle John Lennon, she’s finally now achieving mainstream recognition for the massive contributions she’s made as an artist, with the likes of Brit art darling Sam Taylor-Wood recently eulogising her in The Guardian.
“Everyone knows her name, but no one knows how good Yoko Ono is as an artist’,” said Taylor-Wood.
“It has been said before that she is very much an artist's artist, and it's true - artists can really recognise her thought process, see the ways in which ideas bounce from one thing to another. Artists can respect that. Other people don't find her so accessible, but perhaps that's because they can't get past her relationship with her husband,” she suggested.
Seminal in inventing Conceptual Art (in which the idea mattered more than the artwork’s form) Yoko also remains the best-known character in Fluxus, a movement New York art critic Peter Frank defines as ‘a sensibility, a way of fusing certain radical social attitudes with ever evolving aesthetic practices’.
“Fluxus is still going very strongly,” says Yoko.
“The essence of Fluxus is knowing that life is about change, it’s all about change, which mean things can’t accumulate. Otherwise they end up becoming an institution.”
Frank also describes her as “one of the most daring, innovative and eccentric artist-performers of her time” and it’s the way she’s applied the same fearless approach to her life that’s made the 70 year old Japanese icon as relevant to the present as she was in the 60s. Yet sitting on her giant shoe sculpture, the immaculately presented artist could easily be mistaken as a demure even passive character, save for her focused, highly alert gaze, which projects the same blazing intensity that shines throughout her work.
Skrufff (Jonty Skrufff): What inspired the concept of looking through a cockroach’s eyes?
Yoko Ono: “Cockroaches are a very strong race, just as we are as humans, we’re a good match, so I wanted another strong race to look at us and see what they see.”
Skrufff: What were the key differences you spotted between humans and roaches?
Yoko Ono: “They can see clearly what’s happening about dead bodies and blood. The 20th century was a very violent century though it didn’t need to be. We were just feeling like we had to be violent and we were. The days when we needed to be violent for self-defence, for example, happened maybe ten centuries previously. We’ve just been repeating the same pattern ever since then.”
Skrufff: You’ve highlighted Herman Goering’s famous quote about leaders as opposed to ordinary people, wanting to wage war, as the main highlight of the exhibition, why did you choose that quote in particular?
Yoko Ono: “Because that’s reality, you have to know what’s reality rather than living in a dream and accepting what is happening is happening, in the way that’s constantly being advertised. Many people are still believing in the propaganda that’s being put out and I’m saying Hey, don’t believe in everything, try to see reality.”
Skrufff: The Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia said recently ‘allowing women to mix with men is the root of every evil and catastrophe’, how do you think that kind of extremist thinking can be combated?
Yoko Ono: “I think if we try to combat every insanity we’ll end up insane ourselves. It’s important that we ignore it and keep on doing what we believe in instead of listening to others or getting angry about the insane mode of others. We should not be critics we should just do what we believe in, and for that we should try to see reality as it is. Just by being very peaceful, we can actually help the world to be peaceful instead of being violent. Peaceniks tend to be violent because they’re so angry, and they just end up joining a different group of violent people, by being different, by being angry. It’s very difficult not to be angry and not to be violent but we have to understand that if we want world peace we have to start creating peace.”
Skrufff: The news is full of stories about Intelligence agencies and their role in the Iraq War, and you and John Lennon were famously investigated by the FBI in the 70s, given that some of the ideas you’re spreading could be seen as subversive, how do you view the authorities?
Yoko Ono: “I don’t think I’m being subversive, I think I’m being very normal.”
Skrufff: Do you have any concerns about them interfering?
Yoko Ono: “Well you see, the way I look at it is this; when the FBI were checking us, I hope they enjoyed it. But they didn’t affect us because we were in our own world, living our lives in a way that was us, we just tried to be what we were. Or rather, we didn’t try to be some particular way, we simply were as we were. And that’s very important. So instead of getting upset with the people who were trying to invade our personal lives, we ignored them. They can’t really invade as long as we are totally involved in ourselves. They might be thinking they’re invading, but that’s their view.”
Skrufff: You’ve been globally famous for 40 years, what do you make of today’s fame culture?
Yoko Ono: “Instead of criticising or reviewing culture I take the approach that whatever I have I try to use it for the good of the world, for ourselves and for me personally too.”
Skrufff: Sam Taylor-Wood said in this week’s Guardian ‘To look at Yoko’s work is to look at an artist who isn’t afraid’; what advice would you have to people wanting to overcome their own fears?
Yoko Ono: “Just do it.”
http://www.liquidpics.com/odyssey/index.htm (Robert Young’s filmed installation of Yoko’s new show Odyssey Of a Cockroach: the show runs between Thursday 5 Feb to 7th March 2004 at ICA 'East' 14 Wharf Road, London N1 [free entry, 12 noon to 7.30pm, daily]
http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/features/story/0,11710,1136693,00.html (Sam Taylor-Wood on Yoko: ‘Her work influences more people than anyone realises. Her films must have influenced Andy Warhol, who is one of my own influences . . .’)
http://www.artcommotion.com/Issue2/VisualArts (Peter Frank on Yoko and Fluxus)
Interview by: Jonty Skrufff (Skrufff.com)
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